E47 - Duncan Grant - Swimming with MS

Today we’re joined by a man whose story will make you laugh, make you think, and maybe even make you tear up a little. He’s a Kiwi swimmer, a fighter, a smiler, and a guy who’s learning how to navigate life with a whole lot of heart – and with multiple sclerosis tagging along for the ride.

Duncan Grant has spent years in and around the water, but these days, the real challenge isn’t the ocean – it’s the daily grind of living with MS. And yet, you’d never know it from his attitude. This is a man who shows up with a grin, cracks a joke, and still manages to outswim half the pack. He’s proof that resilience doesn’t have to be loud – sometimes it just looks like quietly showing up, again and again.

We dive into Duncan’s life, his love of swimming, how MS has shaped – but never defined – his journey, and what keeps him going even on the hardest days.

Transcript

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Welcome to another episode of Clevverdix. In this episode we're talking to Duncan Grant. Yes, that's a different Duncan. Duncan is an Auckland based swimmer who's dealing with multiple sclerosis or MS as a lot of people call it. We talk all about how it impacts his life and his swimming and how he found out that he had it in his first place. Duncan's done some pretty good swims for somebody whose body isn't working on all levels. He's got a grant from Mastering Mountains which is an MS support organisation. It was a great conversation we had. I think you're really going to enjoy this one. Welcome to another Clevverdix podcast. In this podcast we're talking to Duncan Grant, not our normal Duncan, but another Duncan. Welcome, Duncan. Thank you. Thank you, Jim. Thanks very much, Ian Duncan. Duncan, you normally just start the podcast by giving you an opportunity just to tell us your story, how you got involved in swimming other parts of your life. I know you've got lots to tell us. But I thought I'd just give the mic over to you and then we can start to check up things after you've had a chance to tell us your story. No, no problem. I didn't grow up as a swimmer and I probably can't sort of same myself as a swimmer at the moment, but yeah, I'm getting that. I grew up on a hill country farm down in a place of a central off island called Tihapi. Most people who are in New Zealand will know where that metropolis is in the central off island. So yeah, I didn't grow up with much water at all, but we had a little went to a farm school and we had a little school pool there that was like the old ice swimming, a bit of an ice bath, a piece of alcohol thing on top of the roof to try and warm the water up. But yeah, I was sort of led to swim there and going forward to high school on that, never really did anything about swimming. You know, the typical New Zealand things that won't be in cricket, etc. I loved my sport and then from leaving high school, sort of had a couple of years back on the farm. I didn't really quite know what to do. I'm a dead soul of the farm, so I thought I'll go teaching. My mum was a teacher half the other side of the family's teachers. So when it's teaching and major in physical education, so yeah, taught in New Zealand. And I got into mountain running, love of mountain running, mountain biking, we're just sort of starting then a little bit, then I went over to the UK and was heavily involved in adventuracing over there. When it was sort of in its prime back in the the late 90s, really 2000s. And funny enough, I met a South African girl and I ended up in South Africa. I think you go for six years. Yeah, I have to cancel this podcast. That's not going to work for us. I know. Yeah, so I got a little bit off the cans as well. So you can't get away with that. Lacka, lacka. Yeah, no, I, yeah, by lacka. So I taught in a place called Peter Marisburg, in Natal for six years. And the I did five doozies, a pair of doozies five times, and enjoyed that. Yeah, enjoyed that. And then in 2010, we up and came back to New Zealand. And I've been, I've got a job at St Kenningham Boy School, he'd have sport there and I've been there ever since. So yeah, that's that journey. The journey into swimming. Yeah, so and the multiple's process. So when I came back to New Zealand, I was determined I wanted to go running again. So I got back out on the roads because I had a knee up and I thought, oh, that must be just my knee. So I started running and I could do about five minutes and then my left leg would be, there'd be nothing left of it, you know, it'd be just exhausted. So I'd walk one minute, run five minutes, walk one minute, and I seemed to manage it okay, but nothing ever got better. So I decided to investigate if it was still my knee. So yeah, when I started going through the doctors, oh, I forgot prior to that. And so I figured I had issues with the heat in my head, like I was feeling my hands and my feet were boiling hot. I didn't know what was going on. So I went to my local doctor a couple of times and he had never clued and finally asked me am I up? I was like, no, man. So I gave up on doctors. I just just sucked it up and got on with it. Didn't know what was going on, but didn't really fit me a huge amount. So yeah, so I decided I want to get back to running. So I couldn't run. So I started, my mate is a swimmer. He threw me, it was when I think, he's from serious matter, just started, I can't remember, 2010 somewhere around there. Yeah, he threw me an old wetsuit and I put my name down for the 500 meters and off a went. I nearly drowned. I trusted I nearly drowned on that 500 meters. So I was like, bugging. And sort of the way I work is like, yeah, I'm going to knock this bug off. So, you know, I've got a couldn't breathe properly. So he got one of my boys from school who's only 13 years old as a tox swimmer said to his mum, you know, I'll give him a, I think back then it was like an apple play card or whatever as a voucher. If he can tap me down to GI pool, teach me how to breathe both sides, do a bit of straight corrections. So he took me down the steering door and taught me a few bits and pieces and then I just, yeah, I got knocked off the 500 then knocked off the K, knocked off the 1500, the 2K and yeah, it just became a bit of an addiction. But during that period, I find that when I was swimming, I'd get this sort of mystery creeping across my chest and I didn't know what it was. It wasn't a muscle and it wasn't, it wasn't external. I couldn't figure it out. And sometimes if I kick really hard and I get to the end of the race, I get out of the water and my left leg will collapse and then in about five minutes would come back and I didn't really think much of it. So, but then on the other side, I thought, you know, I want to get running as well and swimming. So, I went down the route of doctors, went to the doctor and he was like, oh, it will go your left leg's a little bit slightly more interfied in the right leg. I don't know why. So, when I said, we'll go and do a knee MRI. So, started with a knee MRI, nothing. He's actually fine. I'm like, oh yeah. And then when we went up to my sort of pelvic area, there went for x-ray or pelvic realm of hips. And the lady kept saying to me, you're on the x-ray and stand up straight, stand up straight. And I said, I am standing up straight, but I didn't realise I was standing at an angle. Took all the x-rays there and nothing came back. And then my GP said, oh, there's this back specialist called Angus Don. I was like, oh, actually, I know Angus. The jaws of a private school is teacher's son. So, I went over to Angus, his back surge in Auckland and he did a couple of neurological tests. These just basic flip tests on my fingers and on my left leg and he said, no, something's not right here. Yeah, it's not working. The signals aren't working properly. I said, we'll send you for an MRI on your brain and upper spine. So, yeah, we went and met, oh, because I had a head, I forgot I had a, during that period of time, I had like a massive, or what you know now, it's an neuropathic pain in my hip. Somebody likes got a kettle prod just jam in a electric kettle prod in your hip. Just the electric currents that were going through my body were crazy. I couldn't sleep. I wasn't paying. I was going to ask, how would you know what an electric kettle prod feels like? Is that great? Is it from growing up on a farm? Now, more men you see. More men you see is the other thing. So, just from seeing the truck driver's trying to get the stock on, you know. So, yeah, it's pretty. So, yeah, so, I waited for me at MRI and in that time, I got myself into a pretty darker place because you start, you know, they say, you know, he said it could be MS. So, I started googling and, you know, what happens when you google. Basically, your world's coming to an end if you google with MS. And so, I waited and then the neurological reports came back and they didn't even have to do a spinal tap, which is what they do. They said, no, you bring me up and said, no, you got an MS mate. There's lesions in your brain and in your spine. So, yeah, that's sort of 20th of July, 2020 off the top of my head, I think it was. Yeah, your sort of world comes crashing down. So, yeah, but in that time, I just I just kept on swimming, just like, Dory. Kept on swimming. So, you know, that was where I got to with my diagnosis. Yeah. So, for MS. After you, Jim. Yeah, sorry. The question is, it's quite a journey to get through to a diagnosis. It's a bit of a commentary amongst people who get MS that it kind of takes that long for people to, for doctors to work out what the issue. Yes, yeah, it's German. It's one of the, one of the issues we're trying to work with because the sooner you can get onto, I want a drug called Okrevis, which so basically, you know, MS for those people who don't know, it's your immune system fighting itself. So, you've got your B and your T cells, which your immune system, and they're actually attacking your blood brain barrier and your spine. And so, multiple sclerosis, which is a Latin term off the top of my head means multiple lesions. So, you think it's like a, anyway, I can sum it up as you think of my spinal cord like a, like a power cable. And you know, when a power cable shorts out and all the wires, wires are showing with like a black, black sort of fizzing area, that's what my spine looks like. So, the plucks, either scars, the multiple sclerosis, it attacks it, and then it heals as a scar. So, then my signals instead of doing like this for people who've got normal, my signals go like that, trying to jump the scar, which then attaches the movement to my body. Yeah, so, the sooner you can get onto the drugs, the sooner you can hopefully have some type of control of it. So, that's yeah, if I look back now, it probably took me 12, 14 years to get to a diagnosis, but it wasn't really affecting me at that stage. So, I just sort of let it go. But yeah, that is one of the key things we've been working on, MRIs are getting better, doctors are getting more sort of medical research, given to them about it. So, yeah, soon you get on at the better. Yeah. Hey, clever dicks listeners, I'm Merlotte, the head coach from Swimmy's Mid Auckland. Wondering how to improve your stroke or breakthrough your performance plateau, our swim analysis session will help unlock your potential by capturing your stroke from every angle and showing how to correct it. We use a swimsuit methodology focusing on the individual rather than the stroke. Use a code clever dicks to get 15% off if you book a bit analysis session before the end of this year. And if you're an Auckland or visiting, come check out our awesome squad, the first session always free. Find us online swimsuitorclin.go.nz Do things progressively get worse or now that you've got the drugs, it sort of maintains your sort of current status going forward. How does that work? Yeah, that's a good question. That's the million dollar question, yeah. I've been on the drug aquarivists for five years. I get an infusion every six months, which takes about seven hours to infuse. And unfortunately, far back cover it all. It's not a cheek drug. So, their whole thing is that giving the patients this drug hopefully keeps us off the health care system in the longer. I've been five years now since I had a relapse and that's when the damage was caused. And I have had very, very minimal change. I can feel very minimal change. There's different types. There's relapsing remitting MS, where you have an attack and then you get some type of healing, you have an attack, you get some type of healing. And then there's PPMS, which is primary progressive where you don't get an attack, but you just get slowly worse and worse and worse. Whether you're on the drug or not, but the drug helps slow it down. I want me to have relapsing remitting, so I had the damage done, which is to fit my left side and slightly a little bit, well, it's not a huge amount. I think the drugs are doing a good job, but out of everything, I think my fitness over the years has been the key to keep it at bay when I look back at it. Nice man. So what is your current swimming activity look like? I mean, I know every time I turn around, I see you popping up at any event. What's crazy, yeah, yeah. The swimming goals, well, I was actually, I've continued swimming through the whole stage of the, you know, from not realizing I had MS to the MS type, noises and right through. So I'm like, big of us, man, you know, I accept that I've got MS, but I don't accept the MS. So acceptance is a real key thing. If you try and fight the MS and your mentality, then you could go down big time. So you've got to accept that you've got MS and you've got to live with it and then try and do what you can to adjust and make it work. So I just kept swimming. And what I had to do though is I had to change my mindset. I used to be back like, you know, at what time, you know, like you will always do, you know, what would you swim the 1500 and where do you do the 2k and you know, look in at all the lists. And I had to say, well, hey, I'm just lucky that I can still swim. So I had to change my mind to say, no, it's not about the time. It's not about the distance. It's just about getting out there and swimming. So yeah, so I dropped back from like on the Thursday night, I said, I'm not going to do the 2k anymore with all this, you know, people swimming over the top of each other. I'll drop back to the 1500 and just enjoy it. And then they swim over me when I get to the 1500 meter boy. And 2k is, yeah, and I just, you know, go and do the, a lot of the, you know, banana boat series, Dan stuff and, you know, setting stuff for every once in a while. Yeah, and um, but I had, I've tried to do as much as I can through MS Auckland and there's a, what I was doing was, I got a grant called the Mastering Nountains Grant, which helps people with MS show other people with MS what you can do in the outdoors. So I live for it and got it and I was doing the swims. Those particular swims to an end that was getting put on the Instagram and through MS Auckland and just encouraging people, you know, just to stay active, which was what my key thing was. So that's what I was doing and I finished there. I had a few setbacks, you know, covered, broken foot, things like that. But I finished off with, I wanted to do Rangytoto again because that was my goal. Yeah, but for me now, I think that's a bridge too far. Um, but we'll see. We'll see. Is that a bridge too far from, from a training perspective, Duncan, or is it just sort of too much of a stretch to put your body through such intense exercise for whatever it is. And I want to half to two hours. Yeah, it's, it's, it's more the, it's not that I can't do it. It's just more that my body won't let me do it. My, I've got quite, uh, bad atrophy and my left leg. So it's a lot weaker than my right leg. And that's why if you see me sometimes on the limping and people, people always used to ask me, man, your limping and I used to say, oh, you're rugby injury, you know, rugby injury. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, but now, like today, today, for instance, I went for, it was beautiful. I think this morning, stunning, stunning. So, you know, we had the bit, the kippers and we said, oh, it was my fault. I said, uh, right, let's go greenstick. You know, it's beautiful. And, um, cold people with MS sometimes the heat sets off their MS. For me, it's the cold sets off my nervous system. And so off we went, Mark and Jonathan, Martin and we all went out there and got to the greenstick and I could film myself my body starting to, you know, my mind was okay, but my body was starting to shut down and then on the way back, it wasn't easy. And then I got out and I could hardly walk the body just the, the nerves won't signal to the legs. So yeah, that was, so I just have to be, that was a bit of a silly thing to do actually. So I've got to be careful. Um, so yeah, it's not, so I don't want to, it's just that, yeah. The morning was cold, right? It was probably 14 degrees or so in, in the ocean this morning. That was, yeah, I think that, uh, yeah, I think that, uh, the kippers do it a little bit colder. It's also, it's colder in the, in the harbor. Yeah, it's, yeah, yeah. You guys are there and it's, it is jammers. So he was out there. So, yeah, he's, yeah, he's special. He is, and Rochelle was there. So yeah, but yeah, so that's, you know, I just, I love swimming, I love the feeling of it, I love the freedom of it. Um, and I know it's good for me and it's just that, once I change that mindset of not really worrying about the distance or the time, it just makes life a hell of a lot easier for me. Yeah, 100%. Because nobody really cares, right? I mean, I, I really just, I mean, maybe it's as you get older as well, you don't care how fast or how far or where you came in the race. It's just about being there, right? And, and generally, um, I'm hoping the image doesn't affect your, your coffee status, because swimming is all about coffee afterwards, right? With your mates, uh, it's, it's 100% man. 100% is one of those, uh, always kill it wrong. One of those raisin, Pinarello things, I can never say, well, it's cool, you know, from, uh, Eric F, uh, but yeah, fear that's, that's the most important thing for me now is, is swimming with friends, you know, and, um, you know, amazing thing about swimming is it's just, you meet people that you'd probably never meet in everyday life, you know, and you meet them there because you've got some commonality, which is just swimming. Exactly. Um, yeah, tell me about your trail running back in the day, man, did you, that normally involves some, some bigger distances or fraud? Yeah, yeah, yeah, it used to do that. It used to do this one called the car with your challenge during the car, because I don't think it runs anymore. I used to do that, uh, for a few years running, and then I just used to run with mates up into the Ruahini's, because I lived in Manoa too. Yeah, so, you know, through, uh, yes, and beautiful places up in the Ruahini's interiors, um, but I think even back then, there wasn't a huge amount of, it's become quite popular now, from what I see, the old trail running. Yeah, um, yeah, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, yeah, I was going to say, all your time at Kitamari's, did you ever feel the urge to, to run down to Durban or something like that, you know, to, to, to leave on the comrades train? Yeah, yeah, that's, that's what I was, that's where I had my knee operation in Peter Merisburg, so I was, I had done a, a couple of marathons there and a lot of halves and that, I was right, right, I'm training for the comrades, and I was up in the city, um, took the old Maul Man, came over and mum, so I took them up the end, I was going for a run, and I could, I could hear this like, gravel noise, and I thought, man, it's, I'm running on grass, it was my knee, you know, just, you know, bits and pieces, yeah, so I went ahead and cleaned out, and the doctor's designer just gave running a miss, and so I thought, and all honesty, that's, you know, it was probably the emiss even at that stage, but it wasn't really affecting me, um, yeah, but so, you know, you can, you can use, you can use the emiss for a lot of excuses, I'm getting older as well, you know, so, it's, uh, good to take everything with a great soul, but I, yeah, I'll just use age, yeah, but then, uh, you did, you did the next best thing, right, which was the doozy, yeah, I did it with my, uh, Brad, he's done, he still lives in South Africa, he lives in pretty Marisburg, and he's married to Kimi, actually, Rhonda, who's from Dunedham, nice and, uh, she's, that's how we met, she was her and I with only Kiwis and Peter Marisburg, uh, she's still there, um, yeah, so we, uh, it was a character, and, uh, we was a, still we was a character, um, and yeah, we did it together, uh, doubles the whole time, we had a, a great old time, we used, uh, the old Huns, there was a bit of fueling, fueling for us, you know, yeah, yeah, yeah, 100 percent, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's a good race, you know, that's a tough race, it's a three-day race, is it not? Yeah, yeah, at the back there, you know, Dunedham is the coolest one we stayed there for the night, and, uh, uh, you know, then you get the water released in the morning and pedal down to dubs, and, uh, you know, at a great time there, right? This, uh, yeah, I can't say that I didn't, uh, not enjoy it, so that's very cool. It's a radical experience. You, you would have been just down the road from, from Howik as well, which is the home of, but my mile? Yeah, I didn't, I wasn't swimming back then, so I, yeah, yeah, I actually was funny thing, I did, uh, um, I did what was it, uh, some sort of, uh, the interior, at Midma, like a cycle swim, run one, and because I couldn't run, I had to do the swim, uh, swim cycle one. I, uh, I had, when I took the swim, I was like, so I couldn't swim very well, and I had people passing me doing breaststroke, and it's kind of cool, it's like, but my bike, it was okay, so I got along the bike, so I didn't, yeah, I only got into swimming really when I got back here and, um, just sort of, got you have just, yeah, just, and the ocean swimming is, yeah, I don't, I don't really like looking at the black line of a pool, so, um, do, do you get into the pool? Yeah, it doesn't really, occasionally, yeah, occasionally, yeah, if, um, like in the winter time, like, after I, if I have a bit of a, I've had a couple of, you know, times where my nervous system hasn't gone too well in the cold, so I've sort of said, yeah, now, I'll go and hop in and, um, see how many hair ties I can see at the bottom of the pool, um, so, yeah, that's sensible, that's sensible, yeah, yeah, um, so let me, just, what is, what is the, I mean, again, I feel stupid asking these questions, but I'm going to ask them anyway, right, but like, how many other, you're a school teacher, that's why you say that, but you should know better, there's a lot of stupid questions, and I'm really good at asking those, but I'm going to ask anyway, how, how many other sort of swimmers with, with MS, do you know of, and do they go through the same sort of challenges and the same symptoms as you? It's a very good question, um, oh, yes, I know of one lady who follows me and I follow her, she swims in a pool, um, but I have, I have no, I follow some from overseas, um, but I'm yet to meet anyone out there in New Zealand, uh, I hope there's somebody there, and if somebody can hear this podcast, let's have a chat, but I've never met anybody yet with MS who, who swims, um, you know, I, um, I know a lot of them do swim, and I, and I, uh, uh, one of the key things from urologists, and that is to, and, and physios, say, you know, goes for them, definitely, so a lot of them would swim, you know, in a pool, doing bits and pieces, um, but I'm yet to sort of come across somebody who's doing what I'm doing, uh, transforming. Yeah, and then, yeah, I put myself on social media, and I'm not a fan of social media, and it was a hard thing to do, but my whole thing is, if, if I can, you know, be sort of some sort of role model for those people with MS that it is possible, um, yeah, then that's, that's helping one person, you know, with it. I work for MS Auckland as well as a, um, peer support person, so, and they particularly sort of use me for, uh, it's more, it's harder for men with MS than it seems to be with women for being accepted here, and, um, especially for men over 50, so they sort of put me in, they put them in contact with me, and we just, we just have a chat and just, to the fat and, um, trying to sort of, uh, question me a bit on my exercise, and how that helps, or maybe mitigates the stunts here. Hello swimmers, I'm Shannon Keegan, US-based founder of Intrepid Water, and host of the podcast Stories from the Water. My friends at Swimscape in Auckland, New Zealand are the proud ambassadors of Auckland's most iconic ocean marathon swim, the 20 kilometers around Rangitoto Volcano in the Haraki Gulf. This is a very achievable marathon swim that, like all long-distance swims, will live in your memories forever. I don't know about you, but I've got this swim on my bucket list for when I get to visit the beautiful land of the Kiwi. Jump on swimscape.co.nz or email info at swimscape.co.nz to book your slot. See you in the water. Exercise really helps you. Is that a general thing for all MS people that, uh, the physical activity? I mean, it helps us, you know, in terms of just general health and well-being, but is it, is it's got specific advantages? Um, yeah, yeah, Jim, actually, 100% has a set you're right, it helps for anybody, yeah, especially when you're getting older, but I think back in the early days and what I understand, you know, back in the 80s and that, when the MRIs came around, which I think was the late 80s or early 80s, basically, in yourologist would say that the people with MS, you know, hey, good luck. Go home, nothing we can do for you, you know, being a wheelchair in five years and, you know, good luck to you. But now, you know, exercise is one of the key medicines that they specifically sort of say, you've got to, you've got to keep active. It's not a double-edged swordboat because it does, it does hurt my body. Yeah, it's not a pleasant thing because of the neuropath, neuropathic pain you get and then the, what to, I mean, the atrophy and my left leg, my whole sort of systems out of line, but at the same time, it's actually doing it good if, you know, what it means. So, yeah, so I firmly believe. So you've got the exercise and you've got some drugs. Is there anything else that is kind of like from a recommendation? Do you get suggested to change your diet or are there any other things that people with MS get sort of recommended to do? Yeah, there's a, I sort of, when I got to invest to me, I suppose it's maybe been a teacher, you know, like information is knowledge. So I just went down this path of just gaining as much info as I could and I got too much. So I had to sort of just work through it. And then I finally worked out that I just take little bits of those resources and use what works for me. So, you know, there's things I, they say a plant-based diet, you know, when one person recommends who's a, who's a doctor, but that's only their sort of suggestion. I tried a bit of that, but I got too hungry. So I'll be back to the meat, you know. So I just sort of, I eat in moderation. I don't, I don't drink alcohol. I stop drinking alcohol since Dale was diagnosed with MS. Yeah, because that's an inflammatory. So I try to stop anything that's an inflammatory. So I don't drink, I try not to drink milk or cheese or egg cheese. But saying that, if I went out for a beer, if you guys knew, bought me a full strength beer, I wouldn't say no. You know, I just take everything with moderation. But yeah, there's things like flexed oil and specific things that I take. So I just take little bits and pieces. But yeah, I don't drink alcohol. It's the key one. Don't smoke, you know, exercise. Yeah. Yeah, it's just kind of avoiding all the inflammatory things is what I'm hearing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and I don't, I don't push it on anyone. That's just my, my call. I want to try and, you know, keep it at bay as long as I can. I haven't got any regrets. That's the coolest thing, you know. I like, I've done the doozy. I've kind of ventureacing of traveled overseas. I'm able to do the stuff that I want it to do. So, yeah. How old are you now? Yeah, I've got a whole lot of crazy summers. 54. I mean, you look like you're 34. So something's working. Wow. So that's everything, son. Hey, so you're saying so? Oh, man. Well, you're not going to die from sun tainey. So they figured you'd die from a panger in the back of your head or something like that for a cell phone. So you're still better off here, right? Yeah. We're calling down a manhole. It's gone. Yes, man, that was the funniest thing hey before I came here I was trying to explain to Jim they were replacing manhole covers with these big plastic covers by the time I came over because obviously they were you know they were being stolen and sold us as scrap metal and they were causing massive damage car accidents pedestrian injuries that's crazy we're going to go running out just to put my head down for the old ground it's great we could make some money yeah Duncan we could go into manhole relocation activities yeah yeah yeah jump you in now I'm a little bit of Duncan sorry I'm loving oh that's what we'll call the business right Duncan and Duncan Duncan the you go double D um dude so talk to me about um your very best swimming experience or for example swimming location that you've been to where do you enjoy swimming the most you say me I mean I do I do enjoy the rustle swim up there swimming across you know if it's safe for an event that's probably my favourite one up there that's pretty cool um I mean it has to be curry you know I mean you know the north short people will say oh attacker you know you've got to get tackleways clear man curry really clear water you don't want to see what I love you know I'm not curry because uh every day is a different day you know it's just like yeah I think they're lucky you know suppose they're getting all you know that sort of um I don't know what the word is um yeah we'll just uh for the softacle you know uh the oceans like life you know every day is a different day and curry will give that to you every single day man you know today it was it wasn't a ripple on the ocean you know it was just it was like it was glass but I swam last Tuesday into a howling westerly straight into uh yeah howling westerly straight into an incoming tide and you know you're just getting thrown everywhere and not going anywhere um yeah yeah yeah it's just my favourite place so it's just uh yeah it has to be managed managed to have any encounters with dolphins or any sort of sea life out there all right oh actually another place to tell you the truth sorry as my favourite place is um up at Metapurri so we we stay up there and we swim to whale bay so I did have an experience up there oh like five years ago swimming with a couple of friends over the whale bay I was two ladies and I was in the middle and next I went at these two arms arm each side just grab my arms and just stop and oh shit what's going on and then beside us was just just what a dolphins just you know coming along beside us it was just incredible so we just swam along with a dolphin swam beside us and then got back and I joked just a joker so I had next thing I'll bring your walkers so so the you know that pot of walkers that comes down from the cape it comes down to Auckland yet yeah and no lie the very next day we weren't swimming but the very next day a pot of walkers was out in the out in the bay so we hopped on paddle on on canoes and paddle boards and that went out and just watched these walkers and I was well away from them and I was just sitting there and next minute I just heard this you know the blowhole behind me and the walker just went right under my canoe and up up the other side quite away from me but yeah never had that happen again but yeah pretty magical that's a very special moment that it's a cool place as well yeah metaphor is very cool very lovely place to swim but yeah coming metaphor and high for the north short people technically so what can we do to to help you get through maybe a ringy totus from next to Duncan do you need some training bodies what can we do man we want to get you through that oh no the things man mark and I have we've been we've chatted over the time and it's yeah it's always sitting there and I really do want to do it and the key thing is probably it's more I suppose it's nervous of not you know not not making it because if I start something I always want to finish it if you know what I mean I don't want to ever get to a place oh I should be able to say oh yeah how I tried it and I didn't make it and but yeah that's just unfortunately not in my mentality so yeah I mark and I have sort of chatted you know about you know just just going together and just doing it slowly and maybe it should make Dan more aware of my situation so he doesn't pull me out on a boat yeah but yeah I think it's just yeah confidence thing as well as as key just being you know I lost a lot of confidence when I've got emis it's coming back but you know yeah the unfortunate thing with emis is you have good days near bed days in the body sometimes it's a what they call a snowflake disease because everybody's different and it's an invisible disease I don't have a broken arm but I don't have an arm that works very well or a leg and so yeah it's just maybe yeah comes from it with me Duncan our comes from a routine man we'll we'll lower the standards a bit and come across to to Koei and swimming the mud there this no stress with me we can do that I tell you I tell you what we can do um Gemina are hosting a swim in November for men's mental health um yeah man yeah we we feel that obviously all mental health is so key but um nobody loves us men enough dude so we want to just shut in particular about men's mental health right so um we've we've co-labbed with with I am hope um yeah I've got one of his tops well you're going to get another one because Max he's committed he's going to come in and swim as well um he more than likely won't won't do all of them because he he also um struggles a little bit in in the water it's not he's he's uh sort of natural moving space so he'll have a wetsuit on he's going to bring his friends along as well and he'll do one or two but it's uh it's a it's a type of environment again where we swim one mile on the hour every hour and you can come and do one you know have have a rest do another one do do three do five do do as many as you want right but again safe environment a couple of iOBs on the water and paddleboarders looking after us and um you know the the whole idea is to try and just raise awareness for for mental health so you can maybe sort of jump on your social media and and do some awareness oh love to raise well cool you know put your name down yeah please do I mean you know that was one of the key things for me was I was you know I remember old man old man's 84-year farmer and he said to me as unusual for somebody of his age he said to me years ago he said he'd never ever be afraid to get help and so you know it's pretty amazing coming from somebody of his generation yeah and yeah I I was soon as I got him asked me and I was straight to a psychologist you know I was like I've got to get I've got to have help I can't do this on my own um you know I went I still got my psychologist so I haven't seen him much lately uh he deals with people with spinal cord injuries so sort of the same sort of um sort of yeah facet that you know that I've got with the with the spine and the brain so yeah 100% you know behind that's uh yeah that especially for men yeah because like you say like your old man men are pretty stubborn right so yeah yeah it's awesome and it's uh he's such he's such a good thing oh my king he's good yeah man count me in on that one count me in on that one Jim yeah no I think this is this has been a wonderful chat it's good to smith you yeah thank you and um it's good it's good to get the message out of you know about about a mess because you know um I had to do a bit of research before talking to you because I thought I knew about it and then I said didn't yeah so the more people you know about it the the more sort of yeah it's going to help yeah absolutely Jim I mean I was the same before I I had very heard of it but didn't know what it was about and um you know the more people can be aware of it the better you know it's like anything um yes it's uh and unfortunately more and more people are starting to be diagnosed with you miss it I know why but yeah um anyway uh yeah more I can do so thanks very much for having me on uh appreciate it yeah man thanks thanks for your time Duncan how can people get hold of you if um if they want to ask you any questions or if they want to follow you and your progression yeah 100 percent um I've got a Instagram account swim for MS yeah it can catch me on that um I had a little bit of a break from it for the last couple of months but I've just started posting again I actually that was a mental thing I was like oh man our social media now and uh and then I start no actually yeah this is the way you can maybe reach somebody or help somebody with MS so uh or just raise awareness so yeah you can if you want to ask me any questions or want to follow tuning more than welcome to swim for MS it's my Instagram account awesome Duncan we'll see you in the water dude and we'll see you we'll see you at uh 12 bar 12 bar one mile in November take it easy and kick some ass man how are we doing man thanks guys cheers son thanks so much hi my name is Caitlyn I'm Riley I'm the youngest person who have completed the Ocean 7 Challenge and for this really cool podcast has helped you learn something new maybe it's introduced you to new swimmers made you smile um then please take the opportunity to subscribe to Duncan and Jim's channel I'm sure they would absolutely appreciate all your support cheers thanks Caitlyn well as always you can give us feedback on our Instagram account at Clevdix or send us an email Clevdixinz at gmail.com we'd really appreciate hearing from you and cheers we'll speak to you again soon