E44 - Shannon House Keegan - The Water Relationship Expert.

Shannon House Keegan is an American marathon swimmer whose open water accomplishments stretch across many different bodies of water. From the mighty SCAR Challenge, to Lake Memphremagog to Lake George, Shannon has swum through some iconic and challenging waters. And when she’s not swimming, she’s talking – as the host of Intrepid Waters, a podcast where she explores the mental, physical, and emotional depths of open water swimming with fellow aquatic adventurers.

With a heart for storytelling, and a deep love for the open water, Shannon brings a thoughtful and inspiring voice to the sport. Whether you’re a seasoned swimmer, a weekend dipper, or just curious about what drives someone to swim for hours on end in wild places, this episode is for you.

So grab a towel, tune in, and let’s wade into the intrepid waters of Shannon House Keegan.

Transcript

Okay, right, welcome to another Clever Dicks podcast in this podcast we're talking to Shannon.  Welcome, Shannon. Welcome. Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here.  Well, we're very excited to have you because not only are you an amazing swimmer,  but you're an amazing podcaster. So there's a chance that we're going to learn a whole bunch of  stuff and hear some great stories. So yeah, looking really looking forward to it.  Yeah, I love a good story. Yeah. Well, I've learned quite a lot from listening to your podcast  and the way that we always start ours as well is just giving you an opportunity to tell us a  little bit about your swim story, how you got going, what keeps you going and some of your motivations  and then maybe we can dive down into some of the amazing stuff that you've done.  That sounds familiar. That's my favorite thing to talk to people about too.  I love giving you stories out there. You know, as swimmers our heads are underwater most of the time.  And so, you know, so we got to get the stories out because some of us are quiet people too,  right? So you kind of need someone to pull it out of them. Yeah, yeah. So my story,  I was a lifelong like pool swimmer, like started, like I remember earning my patch to like swim  across the deep end. That's kind of how it was in America. At least where I was growing up in  Virginia, I remember like if you swim across the pool, you got a patch and that meant you could go  to the deep end of golf at Diving Board. So I remember that being a big moment in my life,  then we moved away from that pool. But anyway, I ended up finding a summer club and all I had to do  to get on the summer club was swim across the pool. So all of a sudden I became a summer club.  So we were swimming in the summers when I was about seven when I started. And I think by nine,  I started swimming all year round like in a year round club kind of thing. I think you guys  call them squads. I don't know what I was just going to meet and you know, earning ribbons and  certificates and learning about this whole world of pool swimming. And that was all good and  well until high school when I started having kind of like, I think in retrospect, it'd be like  performance anxieties, probably what was happening. But it didn't really know what was going on.  I just knew that when I went any time, it was with me and there was some pressure on me. I dive  in the water and I couldn't like exhale like to save my life. So of course, I couldn't really  in. I was like hyperventilating and I remember my event was like the 200 I am and like getting through  the 50 butterfly was like the hardest thing. And then once I did the 50 back and I could breathe  the whole time. Then I was kind of fine by breaststroke. Anyway, but it was it definitely  quit swimming after high school for a really long time. Then I kind of dabbled in triathlon  for a little bit in my 20s and kind of faced the same thing again. But all of a sudden I was going  to open water venues and that really just kind of being like, oh yeah, I know the swim. And  I remember one very specific one in the Pacific Ocean and just being like petrified basically  if what was under the life I got past the break, which I don't even know what to do. And  I wasn't prepared at all. I just dive. I kind of one of those people that like, oh yeah,  what are we doing? Okay, let's go. Wait, what did I just sign up for?  Recurring theme in my life. But I remembered like just trying to get through this probably,  you know, 800 meters swim or something is part of this just little short triathlon and just being  so petrified of putting my face in and not being able to exhale. But I knew I could swim but I  couldn't make myself swim. So like, but worrying with myself the whole time and I kind of swore,  like I never wanted that to happen again. When I finally got through it all and got to the  biking and the running and I didn't really enjoy biking and running that much. I did do a few more  triathlons. I would try to work on this whole thing about my fears of open water. But I'd have  have a big group of people. And so anytime I just wasn't open water, I just wanted to get out.  I just wanted to just like, what are we doing? Okay, get out, like get in, get out.  And it took a very long time and somewhere in my 30s when I kind of figured out  I just like, we moved to an area that had lakes everywhere and they were beautiful. And I could  feel the water kind of pulling me back like, you know, like you could you could do this. And like,  because I mean, it's my my whole life. And that's where I really decided that I needed to get over  kind of what whatever was going on with kind of the sphere of open water that I that was  of like what's in the water, you know, like what lurks beneath there where you can't see because  the lakes weren't necessarily clear. Once you got a little bit out, they maybe just a little brown,  you know, wasn't it? It wasn't like, and I guess I still harbored a lot of fear of the ocean.  But long story long, I signed up for one mile from water swim. I showed up on the beach for the day  of the one mile from water swim and there was a woman who was walking up on the beach. She'd  started about five or six hours earlier and did a 10 mile from water swim. And I was just beside  myself and thinking that she'd been out swimming this whole time while I was all nervous about my  doing my one mile swim. And you know, what's it going to be like? And I have to swim for 20 minutes and  there's Lakeweed, whatever. But then when I just when I saw her really it just it captivated me  this idea of just pushing off and being comfortable and pushing your limits and swimming further. And  I pretty much was hooked, did the mile and the next year I did the three mile and then I did the 10  mile and that's. So it wasn't necessarily a fear of being sort of of the water itself or  drowning or anything like that. It was just a fear of, you know, I don't know. It's hard to  do. When I think things have shifted so dramatically for me that it's and I'm so grateful that they  have over it, especially over the last three, four years. I had a really big swim in the Caribbean and  the ocean and like the amount of surrender like going into that swim and just trusting that I  was in good hands and and then like the experience of swimming in the ocean for like 25 hours and  like I came out of that just being okay well I can do I can do anything but but it took a lot  to get to that point and it was again just me like going what are we doing okay let's go  wait what have I done but yeah my fear it's a little bit like oh what's down there what is it  you know what's gonna get me which I've realized in my life I think too I have a fears  you like what's outside the front door and what's gonna be like if I you know tell people my story  or if I you know like it's been interesting to kind of see the parallels of kind of like how  it's holding myself back and now that I've kind of feel like you know I can let there's like the  floodgates are opening like these are stories that need to be told like we shouldn't the stories  we tell ourselves shouldn't limit us is a big thing for me like I recognize the stories we tell  ourselves and free ourselves from them I think that's that's really quite powerful because you  know we've all got our own little things that hold us back so I was always lucky I've never really  sort of worried about getting into into the water but I've got all sorts of other things and  and recognizing that everybody's different and you know just because you think it's easy to  to jump into this patch of sea doesn't mean that everyone around you's feeling the same way so  yeah it's absolutely a real strong message yeah well I think it's it's really important I guess  that's what I love about marathon swim stories is just highlighting that you know some people don't  have any fear of the water but they're afraid of like swimming further like they're not comfortable  they're not confident and they don't trust themselves I feel like that's a really big part of my  journey too is I've just learned to trust myself in my body and my knowledge of my body and knowing  how I feel and learning to communicate with my crew and trusting people to support me you know  like that's such a big part of it too it's more than like just learning to trust myself and allowing  myself to trust myself right yeah but but but but it is so important when we're talking to when  we're working with when I'm coaching swimmers it's like whatever they're up against is like it's  it's their thing and it's there's it's so it's so important that we just you're with them in  that in that moment and you hear them out and you you know can reflect back to them a little bit  of what they're saying and help them understand a little bit like peel back the layers of the onion  but it I think it's just so cool when you can hold that space for someone and allow themselves to  surprise themselves is what I love did you lose a coach I think so I had a bit of a giggle because  you know you jump on Google and you you check in Shannon Keegan and you you try and sort of  get a couple of things to you know bring up for conversation and I see your super experience because  it says on the 23rd of august 1958 Shannon completed a 36 mile crossing of Lake George  in New York so you've been around you've been around for a while Shannon you look you're looking  pretty good for like a 90 year old I must  you know you've got the date wrong on that yeah you're also that one is a little  open water swimming dot com  anywhere so it's not like George but it was in 2020 the three I think  yeah yes okay not 1958 right so I've got a similar sort of scenario that I'd maybe just  compete quickly is also grew up sort of inland in Johannesburg there was no oceans or anything  around so a lot of this swimming was was pool and similar to you I put my hand up for anything  like really stupid right and for a charity swim the guys decided that we were going to do a 24  hour pool swim right and I can remember thinking you know how hard can it be many you know you can  just stop when you want to stop and whatever anyway we did this swim and as as men do off after  the swim we we were getting sort of changed in in the locker rooms and there was there was three of  us lined up next to each other at a year and all now I appreciate that's something that you  might not be used to but no three of us facing there was facing the wall all looking pretty naked  and hammered and the one young guy he was probably 27 28 at that stage and you know everybody was  quiet and focusing on the job but on hand and he sort of he sort of turned around and said you know  you know we we can do any swim in the world now of you know after having done that 24 hours from  me I said we can do anything you know and I can remember coming home from that thinking you know  why not you know what what can't we so I think it takes something a swim a memory a something  that needs to happen to trigger you know the next steps because because for us I mean again  that was like wow okay well can I can I swim 24 hours in the ocean can I can I can I swim further  can I do this can I do that and it sounds like that's what's happened to you right so since since  that one mile swim that you were so nervous about you you've gone on and done a whole bunch of  stuff what what's what's the one that's got the best memories for you best memories I think a lot  about that so I did the swim in the island of Dominica it's called the Way to Kibouli Sea Trail  it's a kayaking trail and I'd gotten in touch with somebody through the miracles of the internet  who happened to have a guest house and have this sea kayaking business and so and had  was familiar with open water swimming had supported an open water swimming and was really  interested in bringing open water swimming to his to the to the island to bring open water  summers there and so we just kind of decided to make it happen and so I showed up not having ever  been to the Caribbean my husband that was sailed there for a long years ago before I ever met him  and so he was familiar with the island so anyway there was a bit of a like seeming connection like  this needed to happen so we brought our whole family my kids were there and really well taken care  of but like it I didn't even even remotely realize like what I was stepping into as far as the  like just a not really facilities for swimming at all on this island for people that live there  and people that swam if they could swim or were comfortable swimming were you know it was a  like a race to the docker you know it wasn't so it blew it blew everyone away that there's  somebody like starting at one end of the island swimming together end of the island and  and that I didn't even it yeah I didn't know or intend that I was just like yeah cool let's go  for a swim so but I have a lot of good memories from that swim that I think it I had never  swam that long in the ocean before and I considered myself kind of pretty afraid of the ocean it's  nice when it's warmer or fish and you're not uncomfortable the water was probably oh what was it  like 29 it was quite comfortable wow yeah um we would call that hot yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah  yeah it's funny I had done Loch Ness in Scotland the couple months prior and so I'd go it  spent my whole summer in the cold plunge and then after that finished I went to the sauna and I'd  sit in the sauna and visualize my swim in the sauna all right whatever it takes I feel there's  a lot you know upstairs I think to these long swims yes yes and anyway but that's probably this one  I have the most I mean I was hoping to think see more wildlife I did see some dolphins and there  was a little fish that joined me a long way but we were really far out from the shore so there wasn't  just much visibility but I could hear like sperm whales in the distance which I didn't know at the time  it told me after the fact and anyway it it was quite a remarkable experience just everything about it  just like the like the water was so blue in that green mountains just like coming like right up out  of the water and it just wasn't anything I'd ever how long was this one it I think it ended up  being 36 kilometers it took about 20 it's about to I oh yeah I feel like the duration ends  that being really what it was it was 25 hours this is a long swim we weren't sure how long it was  going to be because you the sea the kayaking sea tour they like stop in the villages and like they  do it reasonably you know like a smart person would you do like 10k you take a break you know just  go do the whole thing but I couldn't stay there that long so I just had to get it time  yeah yeah was there a lot of times and things like that did you feel you'd be pushed around or  well that that was I think we didn't again no one had ever done the route before so we were definitely  learning as we go and when we would get to the mouths of the rivers it would create this kind of  weird cross-currence and chop then I'd be swimming in place and didn't really know that know it and  they'd be you know flat completely still flat moments and windy choppy crazy moments and then  it was the end was like okay just to run you see that just around this bay okay no that you see  the end of this bay just around that bay no actually not this one it's good definitely and I just  would I like was whatever just tell me when to get there I don't want to know yeah yeah  so that's interesting right so just to go back to your fear my understanding of  of river mouths meeting the ocean is obviously rivers often pushed down you know a bit of  gunk and in this fish and you know it's a bit of a it's a bit of a place for sharks to hang out  is river mouth so I know when you're swimming in the ocean it's like hey go wide of the river like  avoid the river and in this particular case you decided to aim for all of them well I don't know I  mean I don't I don't we were we were so far from the shore that I I don't know that I think  there was just there was an awareness that it was creating like changes in the currents or  something I don't I mean I was just literally one arm in front of the other and somehow I got  to the end I know you just kept going that's your your longest swim today so far I well duration  wise I stuck it like a 36 kilometer thing last September I did ended up it taking me 29 hours  because we foolishly started at like 10 o'clock at night and ended up taking two nights in a local  lake about local about two and a half hours from here it's local where but it's a really big  reservoir so I'd set out to swim 50 miles because I turned 50 last year and after 29 hours and  I was only it was down to like a mile an hour my my crew kind of had commitments on the other end  of it and we kind of just decided to call it I went back the day before yesterday to finish it up  we called it that closed the loop so I'm back to the same reservoir that got it got in where I'd  gotten out and we swam back to the marina to finish the loop but the 29 it takes two question 29  hours is the longest duration that I've spent but I don't think I've broken 36 K yet  that's that's an amazing feat man super well done I'd hate to know what you're going to do for  like your sort of 55 or 60 K. I know I know well you know I'm a fresh out of this one and while I  was doing it just it was ended up being about 15 25 K to finish it up which I did continue  with that first 36 K there's basically a big difference being moderately rested going into a swim  I got to say um you had a bit of an excitement off to the swim right oh this was before when  the boat was a drift for 14 hours I was it before the swim you're motoring to the motoring to the  the boat ramp where we were going to start and we were we were maybe 50% of the way there and we saw  smoke coming off the engine and we're like okay and then it looked like it was taking home water  and then it was it's just quit and so we rented the boat from a marina and it's a Sunday night it  was Mother's Days was like holiday weekend pretty much and and the mechanic was kind of  enough to answer his phone but he also was not in a place to be able to come out and find us  so we just he said don't turn the engine back on just hang out and we'll I'll keep calling  people I'll find somebody will we'll come get you and um and we just we're floating back to where  we started for the longest time um and then the wind picked up and then it started raining and  and we fortunately there was this big bridge with these pylons and we were really glad we didn't  hit any of the concrete pylons we drifted right between them um but we knew at some point we were  probably going to impact the shore um and we just we into the I mean I just I went to bed I was trying  to get a little rest this time around and um that one quite a night woke up in the middle of the night  and it was like you could feel the boat rocking and up against a shore I'm like oh  and but there was like we let we could do nothing we had no like steering or we're no engine we'd  we just we were a completely the mercy of the marina coming to get us and ended up being about  14 hours later that the I mean there was there was contact in between and they were trying to  find somebody but they were just like you know there's no liability we don't worry about it just  see where you went up and send us a pen so we sent him a pen in the morning and they  motored out and they tried to fix the engine they couldn't so they ended up having to tell us all  the way back to the marina we switched boats and then so it was um many many many hours after we  intended to start that we were motoring back down we had you only had to finish the loop on that  right yes yes for sure for sure yeah yeah so that was a bit that was a it well you know it was a  great practice of being in the moment there's nothing we could do we just surrendered the situation  we're no idea what was going to happen and that's a lot I think of what up on water swimming is as  you've no idea what's going to happen you like to think you're going to finish you like to think  Mother Nature will cooperate the whole time but um uh we really don't have any say in these things  so it was a great practice leading up to the swim but when all I did do then was swim and Mother Nature  still had a way with us a lot of rain and wind and all kinds of stuff but it was beautiful night  it was a lot of fun I suppose one of the one of the good things about something like that is you know  so many people will say it's not just the swimmer it's the whole team that makes makes absolutely  everything a reality I suppose you've done so many swims you you must have a fairly well-oiled  approach to making sure that you've got the right people around you it would that be fair to say  you know it's been an interesting thing because you know I interview a lot of marathon swimmers so  I hear a lot of people talk about like you know so and so's on my always on my crew or um you know  they always kind of perhaps have the same kind of core people or what I do and I've just kind of  seen who come who's available like I started out my husband would support me and my kids and he'd  write he really didn't wasn't interested in supporting me anyway but they're staying home with the kids so  um it's just been an interesting thing to try to find the right people but I feel like the right  people always crop up and it's always a learning experience for me about just learning to build a team  communicate with the team and learn from the team because they all have a wealth of a lot of  times they have a wealth of experience or I should say in previous swims I worked with people who  had a wealth of experience and I've also worked with a team that I built myself from just friends who  weren't necessarily marathon swimmers and I needed to actually educate them a lot so I'm learning  as I go but I think it to me that's it's kind of a beautiful thing about it to see who's interested  and help them learn and see what happens I don't know I think it's it's a it's an important  valuable piece of the of creating I don't know I think of it as like we create a can for me it's  I can I create a container to learn something about myself and where I'm at and where I want to go  and that and you bring people along on that ride and they learn stuff too and I guess my hope is  that we all go out of walk out of it being I don't know maybe not better people that were we have  well a story to tell that's for sure yeah I'm sure we all experiences make us most experiences make  us better you know regardless I think it's it's really cool so I've sort of been on both sides  of it you know being on the on the boat side and in the water side and it is kind of interesting  with the different dynamics you know that the the swimmer often really worries about their team  and it's very conscious that they they're putting all of this effort into them so they want to make  sure that their team is good and then the team is trying to support the swimmer and yeah it's  it's an interesting sort of two-way kind of energy flow I think it is but it isn't it it's a bit to  me it's like the most beautiful thing that we can do with humans is to learn it's to like to do  something that seemed impossible but to bring people together to make it happen and that and  like I think it's even a little bit more unique that I was listening to this podcast the other day  about somebody climbing Everest and whatever and it being self-serving and so I was thinking a lot  of my own marathon swimming is it you know is it it feels indulgent because all I have to do is swim  everyone's taking care of you and it and anyway it's just been an interesting exploration but I  just think that there's there is a beautiful thing about that two-way energy and that that people  want to help you and you want to do something and I wouldn't be able to do it if I didn't have  the people wanting to help me and so it is just this amazing team like co-creating of this beautiful  of like I said something that you you could never do on your own I think that's pretty cool  so just leaning on for that I mean you've done lots and lots of amazing swims but you sort of  took it to the next level and now you're you're coaching and actively supporting and helping other  people achieve their goals as well do you want to talk a little bit about sort of you know how you  transitioned into into the more coaching and enabling part of your of your time yes I want to  know what a relationship coach is a water relationship coach yeah a relationship coach both both  well I'm sure there's no need help with both yeah yeah yeah I so I specialize in the water  relationship because I think I guess I think it's an interesting part of swimming so if you want  a relationship coach you'll have to bark up a different tree all I've got for you is a water  relationship but it's been it's a been an interesting journey because I basically started with  just having a pool in my backyard and helping some of my friends who were triathletes who wanted  some tips and then as I continued on my marathon swimming journey I started having a lot of  shoulder pain and discomfort and and ended up fortunately finding swim mastery as the method  that I coach now which is very much I think it's I mean it's a process of building a relationship  with the water to trust that the water is going to hold you up and all you have to do is leave  your float over top of the water if you if you get your joint and you get your joint can make  your next right and then you don't have shoulder pain anymore because you're not compromising  your joints because the water is an incredibly unstable medium and it's really easy to compromise  your joints so we have to create a stability with our frame etc etc so but but it's been an interesting  thing as I've been out trying to support other people and what I guess I've really realized how  fulfilling it is to be in that cultural like it it really feeds me to see to be someone else's  cheerleader and help them discover that they could do more than they ever thought possible even  if I can't be the person that's necessarily on the boat next to them that I can help them prepare  mentally and physically to take on something that they didn't think was possible then they get to  have that pride that you you get to have your whole you know like no one can ever take that away  from you did that you what you you pushed off and you walked up on the shore on the other side  even whether it was a mile your first mile is the most beautiful thing I think to see someone do  nonetheless they're not you know they're 25 miles or whatever it's it's I'd really just love that  I guess kind of role of empowering people to free themselves from the stories that hold them back  it's very cool it's definitely it's definitely love changing stuff right because I don't think I've  ever met anybody or ever heard any stories of you know people lying on their deathbed wishing  that worked hard or spent more time with the office right yeah so these are the things that sort  of end up defining us a little bit and you know it gives I know for my side being relatively  new in in New Zealand it's giving me the opportunity to not only meet new people but to go to new  prices and get around a little bit right yeah I think it's like a swimming order yeah I feel like  it's like a language you know you could take it anywhere and you might see you see swimmers and you  can just pick up with them and you know not a language but so much but it but it's we can  understand each other because we're willing to make ourselves vulnerable to just be in a swimsuit  talks as you call them right and you walk up on the shore and it's a very it's a very vulnerable  thing to do for for people so I think I live in area whether I don't feel like there are  enough swimmers and so to be able to have to be able to I guess allow people to be vulnerable  and I think there's an authenticity that kind of bubbles up from the Natu because you can't hide  much right so I don't know yeah yeah I just think it's like it brings out the best and people  it can't it has the capacity to bring out the best of people we all again depends what stories  we're telling ourselves if we allow us to be the best selves but yeah so ha so I mean there's this  I heard you you mentioned we call them an ask-bath you called it something else  called punch yeah so there's there's obviously two very distinct sort of things you  need for open water swimming right one is the physical aspect and one is the brain  and we often talk to swimmers around you know how much training do you need to do to do a  a 50 kilometer swimmer a 30 kilometer swim versus how much is just belief in yourself hey I can do  this it's one arm in in front of the other right um yeah I know so that to go back to that  called punch story uh with with ice swimming there's there's a lot of swimmers that  rely on the cold plunge to get mentally ready for the swim and then there's a smaller group which  I belong to which is just I think it's completely stupid to jump into a cold plunge every day  didn't do you know what I mean I think it does more harm than good um but I guess my question is  what you know what's the relationship between brain and physical for a long swim how much of each  do you need and how much is too much um I well I've been testing this one a lot the last several  years just because of the um like kind of shoulder discomfort and like that I was feeling it's  just kind of causing impingement in my stroke and um but I but I didn't want to necessarily stop  swimming longer distances but I knew that at the time I spent in the water I needed to be building  movement patterns that were that were safe in my joints and that meant I had basically to rewire  my brain to swim completely differently than I had for the first 45 years of my life which  so it's it's it's a big process of of trying to let go and I knew that the more I swim I would fall  back on old movement patterns and so I was trying to be really intentional about building joint  safe movement patterns through swim mastery which I mean it's amazing it's a made the transformation  that has been amazing in my stroke and that I can swim completely pain free now and what I found  is that the mental game is like 99% of it so I keep my swims really short and very intentional I  want to swim I would like to be able to build up to more and not fall back on old movement patterns  but it's this very kind of I'm trying to find the perfect balance but I know that I can go  in the water having swim not very much and that I and that on the day of when I create the team  and I and I just go for it that I guess what my coach Tracy's the founder so master always tells  me is like to come out of better swimmer than you go in which is I think an amazing shift of your  mindset is to not go into your swim like done ready and get in and just swim until you  break or whatever it's that you you're actually trying to improve in every moment you're giving  feedback from the water this is the water relationship part it's that you feel your body in the water  you feel when you're finding balance you know and and shifting your weight from side to side and  then it's but it but that at that each moment is controlled and you know when you fall back into  a movement pattern that's because our human instincts don't I don't think they really serve us  in the water like we want to kind of do heads up kind of like a dog in the water so I tell my  swine structures they just want to like go like this so we have to get ourselves to get you know  our frame our whole head all the way in the water you know to where it's in line with our spine  you know et cetera et cetera so but but that you have to override what you you bring kind of  wants to do is be closer to the oxygen and yeah and and and manage your air appropriately is  always been a really big one for me even ever since that whole thing is a teenager still trying  to manage my air so I I have trouble building I'm trouble going faster because I can't you know  manage my fast enough which is just all but the cool part about it to me is that it's a lifelong  journey I always have something to work on I'm never going to be done yeah no I think I can  definitely relate to that so how do you manage your air I mean is it a case of you know obviously  when you swim in open water depending on the wind in the tide you might want to breathe one  side or the other side and you know some swimmers like me only breathe one side it doesn't matter  which way the winds blowing or doesn't matter yeah so but but I mean managing your air sounds  a bit more complicated right so there's we were chatting to a couple of weeks ago who was  referencing while he was swimming he was he was managing his breath work  um by volume to change his body position in the water because if he's something too much  air his body position would be too high up interesting you know sorry so he he was really  um managing his breath work to change his body positioning in the water which is just a way  too complicated for for someone you know I I'm breathing just to to get to the other end  um but I guess how important is is breathing on a marathon swim you know I always compare it to  if you know or maybe two things like one is that you can go and walk being unfit you can go and walk  for 24 hours right because we've been walking our whole life so same story with swimming if you've  been swimming for a long time yeah if you you know if you're on a fucking ship wreck and if you really  had to make a 24 hours swim that day you're going to make that 24 hours swim that day whether you've  trained or not right absolutely yeah so I don't know what I'm trying to say but with yeah yeah  absolutely yeah yeah yeah it's a it's a great question um and um I think the  it's it's an interesting thing for me I'm a quite buoyant person so I'm not having to  manage it to the extent but for some people it is learning how to regulate like that well first  there is where you're putting the air because if you're breathing into your chest you're put your  kind of in fight or flight so you're basically trying to get to the other side and get out whereas  if you're breathing in your belly then you're um is it activating the parasite pathetic then  like you're calming yourself down which in the medium that we can't survive is extremely important  so that's first of all is learning how to you know breathe into your belly and then where what I  what I've kind of come to with air management is just it's it's just another gauge of efficiency  so you can have an efficient stroke where you're exerting less energy to move yourself forward  than the next person and you could have a more efficient air exchange and what it's interesting  everybody is different everybody and everybody like for me I have one side that I tend to hold my  breath on and one and the other side that I don't and I can breathe the both sides relatively  comfortably but when I breathe to one side it's like I have to like kick kick I'm I still  in swim master we talked about building the neural pathways to support the skill and I probably  could do a breath work every day of the week if I had the time to swim that much and eventually  land this plane but in the at the moment it's still just a thing I'm continuing to work on but to  me it's it's an efficient exchange of air that doesn't compromise your body position too it's like  so I can like maybe breathe every stroke every other or be two or whatever to one side  but over time I end up kind of like favoring that side yeah so it's okay can you practice it out  of the pool I you know that's my goal one of my goals is to I at the end of the day I think the  the it's the the layering of skills is in the water which like I want to be able to you know get  my body position right so my joints are safe and manage my air at the same time and that can only  be done in the pool well you can we do a lot of dryland rehearsals and swim master it like in front  of a mirror where you swim and you're and and you I could add the air the breath work into that to  some degree it's it's on my list I have a very long list of things to work on topic  do you have a rest of my life I think one of the things is probably in the top of my list is  actually to get a coach because don't get it I we we just go and jump in the water and swim and  that's it's probably the not the right way to improve well it's you know but it's a decision right  it's a it's a commitment to get a coach and yeah for sure I mean I hear that and I think that  we like that works great to just get in the one and swim right up until it doesn't you know  I guess I'm not I don't want to end up in this line for shoulder replacement or anything  if I could add too old for coach not true not true thank you thank you you just not I don't  need to take you on coachable okay but yeah that's what I was trying to say yeah  that's what my wife would say when we talk about the relationship management scenario as well  so I'm good with that yeah right yeah all right so if I can go back to to some of the crazy stuff  that you've done because I think we've I've got a bit of a bucket list that I'm putting together  that you know when I when I hit the lotto one day and I've I've got all this time and money to  travel around the world and swim to talk to me about score score comes up a lot on various  sort of mediums that are here but what's what's that about and and what might you what might you  go into that so scars of four day for like kind of I don't know stage it's not a stage swims the  four day for elections it comes out to roughly like 40 miles over the course of this four days  it's in remote part of Arizona outside of Phoenix I say remote like is in soft one yeah one of  the lakes is quite remote like it's 45 you're in the you're in the desert that like but like not near  much amenities not like you know delivery pizza or anything like that so  so you gotta see um as well is there's logistically there they get um Kent um does an amazing  job putting them at together and gets all the kayaks in a u-haul to the start like there's so much  that he does to pull it off um and uh I think I first went in 2014 um I was pregnant with my  son at the time and I I decided to do the the last two days but I wanted to try the  the 16 mile or whatever it is a patchy lake is the longest one of the four days and I only made  about halfway because you've just went past the hotel you're staying at I got there it was like  I had wind my husband was over it I was a few games okay we're good and then I came back the next day  did the 10k but it's um I think it's it's a really neat opportunity um it's amazing to me the draw  that Kent's got over the years to people he brings people from all over the world out there  and um and they get to experience this pretty crazy beautiful I like I think I don't know if any  other place in the world I've not traveled enough in the world to know if anywhere else is like  the American Southwest but I had gone to college in New Mexico and spent a lot of time in Arizona  so it was part of my draw at the time when I the first time I went there and then this I went again  in 2023 um was um like it's just I love the I love the Southwest so it's a beautiful part of the  country for me to me and um yeah so it's it's I don't know if any other specific questions about it  oh it's it's it is a game of give a patience lots of patience is required because there's a lot  that goes into making it happen and so there's a lot of waiting around for you're okay I agree but  have you fun you know do you stay in the one hotel and just travel in and after the lakes every day  or do you need to move around yeah so the first two days um you could commute from Phoenix I think  from the outskirts of Phoenix the third day because it starts the longest day use there's a place  called a Apache Inn or something like that Apache Resort which is very use lightly like it's not  really resorting um but you stay there because the lake starts so early for them to try to get  everyone done um and then the last so basically it kind of depends how much driving you're up for  because some of the places you can stay closer to the lakes but it depends that just depends  you know your start time and how much you want to do beforehand or if you just want to be on site  but every day starts at the base of the dam where the waters being released from a from a dam above  so the start is always quite um chilly or like 13 14 ish at the start but it gradually warms up  throughout the day or as you're going and more than anything being that part of a country is  really warm outside usually there's a like the sun on your back I think is I always that's what I  used to warm myself up as I feel the sun on my back um but yeah it's a beautiful experience um if  you're able to make it out I highly recommend it how many swimmers partake I think I think you  take I don't know if it's a hundred or fifty I mean it's I he's pretty selective about  yeah it's definitely managed because it's you can only fit so many kayaks in the U-home  and and then they have to support the boats out on the water that's parking for all  and what is um what scar is CIR is is that the name of the first letter of the lakes  yeah Swaro um Canyon Swaro's the first day the SC's Canyon Lake is a patchy lake in the fourth  day is and those three are all from dam to dam so you literally push off with your hand on the  dam the buoy on the dam line you swim to the other touch the buoy and then you're done um and then  the last one he does a triangle 10k triangle at night so it's it's a being like a nice kind of  training swim for people who are just you know like um yeah I think he thinks of it because he he  created the course from training that he did for the triple crown so um he likes you know like  giving people that opportunity to do a supported night swim this can be kind of rare to find around  here um that's just you know 10k but the leaves and light lights and you go at sunset and  it's pretty cool experience yeah yeah the night swimming not many people do it and but if you're  going to do a 24 hour swim you know you're going to have a good chunk of it's going to be at night  so you need to need to have some sort of an understanding of how it's all going to work right yeah  exactly exactly so all right you've done your 50 mile eventually eventually yeah  having a thing yeah did you have any obvious next next steps that that you're really considering  and I suppose you're saying are you going to come over and swim on our side of the world because  you know you wouldn't ask something you can come it up we'd love to have you  I would love to come out I feel the figure out how to how to pull that off um yeah the this year  I've I booked uh to get the 50 in all at once before I turned 51 I'm planning to head back to the  the lake where I'd all started for me back to Lake Muffin for Megaga in northern Vermont  where I did the one mile up in water swim I lived in that area for 34 years um over a decade  ago now but um just I think very fondly of that of that area that like I've told  them in a number of times I've swim the length of it which is 25 miles but my plan is to go back  and swim across and back I figure it's a little bit more straightforward this route we did in the  lake that's a two and a half hours we were like trying to like get the distance and that um  and running you know like it was there was just a lot of like trying literally trying to swim to  get close to 50 miles this will be a lot more straightforward just go across and you know it's 50  yards miles but you still have a crash to say I turned around to back so that's the plan for this  August yeah very cool hey very cool you you seem like the right type of person to have this  tattoo you you would have heard of the Barclay marathon right oh yeah yeah so we so come on Shannon  we need to figure out what the swimming version of the Barclay marathon is  Sarah Thomas put it on this was actually a really big part of my journey a Sarah Thomas you know  right the world record holder for long scrunch look okay sure yeah she she put on a version of it  in 2000 it would have been like 17 or 18 I can't remember um but I went um it was a mile  sure you did like a mile and a half every yeah yeah um it was in Colorado which was where I grew up  that's where she's she's she lives and um so I had a poll to go there my sister was able to come  and support me and um it was like a mile and a half or something around this three buoy course  and we had to get like a card um from the from the buoy and then it was like whoever started up  on that got like if you if you made the time cut off and the next hour came up and you were ready  to go again then you'd push off again so it was like every hour on the hour until until there was  last man standing and I ended up being second to last which doesn't count for anything  but it but it wasn't she was a big like piece of the puzzle for me like just you reminding me like  you know what you're doing great you're getting enough rest you know like you can you can do this um  but I've never swam through like a horrific lightning storm and torrential down for until that's  when we're the like the weather turned in the afternoon and we just kept going and I was like  is everyone still lighting up but the people started peeling off and I just kept going and what  what got me in the end was it was dark and I missed the turn to because we weren't supposed to have  any assistance from um kayak from anybody there was a kayak or kind of with us because there's  only two of us there at the time but uh by that time and I missed the turn but I swam past it the  kayak or kindly remind look let me know that I was like getting for the other shore and by the time  I made it back I only had about four or five minutes and I just was like ah I'm good but um uh  that's the version I know of she she's she's a bit old too right uh the I guess the like  she was doing it that started trying to charge a whole bunch and she decided not to keep  yeah I like that yeah we've got a similar setup here um not not quite the same but we swam  um one mile on the hour every hour but just for the day last hour so from 7 a.m. to 7 p.m.  yeah and um this year uh in November we've got a charity called I am Hope um who who we are  sort of partnering up with um and we're doing we're doing it for men's men's health men's mental  health uh which is pretty cool but um another swimmer gave us a great idea for for a sort of swim  broccoli farm and he was saying if you if you jump in somewhere you know at um at low tide and you  swim with the tide for six hours or whatever six and a bit hours and literally at the turn of  the tide you turn around and you swim back the other way and and you just you just do that for  like as long as you can but but he was he was a bit more crazy than than the average crazy um but  that's also pretty solid idea right yeah I love it oh man yeah yeah it's an interesting thing to  to try to recreate the water and safely yeah just two two more things from from my side and then I'll  I'll um let you have your day back and unless Jim's got got other questions but one was  you've done some work with triathletes and then obviously also just open water swimmers  um would it be fair to say that that there's quite a big difference in mindset between a triathlete  and and an open water swimmer I feel like they're different breeds um but it's interesting I guess  I've had I have one triathlete who's been working with me this year that's been so inspired by our  open water swimming community that she wants to try and like she came in basically had having had a  or like a horrible panic attack and a triathlon and barely made it through the swim anyway and we've  gotten her to where she just the other day had her like the best half iron she'd ever well swimming  part of the of the event and was so much more comfortable because we've not worked on her  relationship with the water but I think she's a different breed too because not all triathletes  are really they really it feels like they really just want to fight through and get to the bike in the  run um but I think there's I'm having talked as many marathon swimmers that I have a lot of them  have come from triathlon where they realized hey wait a sec I don't actually want to you mean I  could only do just the swim this is awesome so I'm not sure if you're answering your question they  do seem like different breeds um but I think there's hope for them there's hope for everybody  yes um last thing for my side is if you wanted to just give um give our our listeners a bit of a  a heads up as to possibly why you started your podcast and and where they can find it  hmm yeah absolutely so I started my podcast in um in 2020 when the world shut down and all the  pools shut down I was called virtual swim practice and I just reached out to people I'd talk to  over the years and who also couldn't go swim with the pool and I um I said hey meet me online and  after trying a few different things not really not really knowing what I was trying to offer  I was like I know what if I just have a guest that tells a story um because I wasn't like I couldn't  do PT or I'm like wasn't qualified to like anyway at the time and I feel like I had much to offer  but I could be a forum and it really just took off from there people started asking like wanting  to hear someone's story um and I had recordings of them and so I just started putting it out  into the world as a podcast so if people weren't able to make it to the to the call they could  they could listen to the story and it's just been going ever since oh yes and you can find  that we love your podcast and uh yeah um so marathonsomestories.com is the is the is the website where  you can find anybody's story or you can find a lot of any podcast provider but it is soon  going to be called stories from the water because I want it to appeal to people who aren't necessarily  just marathonsomers I think that's a big part of it but as a coach a lot when I realized yeah when  people people would come to me and say I stumbled on your podcast and you know I'd swim on my life  and I never thought of swimming in English channel till I heard someone's story and about them  doing it and I was like oh my gosh I could I could still do that you know like I just didn't  and so it's really I wanted to appeal to anybody who wants to be inspired to  swim further than they ever thought that they could yeah that's fantastic yeah I'm  interested with that's what I like about it I mean even even our little podcast you know we've  talked to some amazing swimmers but we've talked to people who just you know the water's really  important you know they don't have to swim fast and they don't have to swim far but they just have  to love it yeah so I've been very inspired by your by your podcast so thank you very much for  all that you do on it that's that's such a joy I'm excited to keep it going  hey Shannon you you're a legend I have a sneaky suspicion we're going to need to chat again  in in a couple of months about more of your swims I think you're a wealth of of knowledge  and information and appreciate all your time it's it's really good to chat thank you  thank you so much for the opportunity I can't wait to figure out a way to come visit  yeah well yeah yeah yeah I want to come and swim scar yeah it's not too close to me but let me know  when you come yeah okay cool right okay it's all thank you